The Skill Pts vs Loot delimma

[jujube]

It was explained to me by someone that you guys cut back on the amount of loot being given out for winning battles to discourage "farming" of players you know you can beat just to get goods.

If this is true, it has created the exact opposite effect. Buying weapons and spells from the store beyond that first wooden club you needed to get you past the lowest level players is totally cost prohibitive and only encourages you to not play and hoard your EPs. Certainly that can't be the intention. Perhaps if the spread between what you could sell your unwanted prizes for was remotely fair relative to the store, it wouldn't be so out of whack.

However. Honestly, has anyone actually forked over 190 EP for one of those weapons? You're way better off just finding the 4-5 guys ranked slightly above you that you can easily beat and take your shots at that. You're certainly bound to come up with something cool every 20-25 battles and in the meantime, you're gaining skill points. At very least, you'll get at least 3-4 things as nice as the thing you wanted to buy.

So, now you're back to farming.

If you want to avoid this, how 'bout the following:

1) Make the resale value for unwanted prizes remotely realistic (like, say 50% of what they'd cost at the shop)
2) Have more loot available, but your chance of getting it rather than SPs goes down based on how many more times you've beaten the player you just beat relative to how many times he's beaten you. This way, you're not penalized just because you've beaten the same guy a bunch of times if he's beaten you just as often. Thus, once you get to 15-0 or something, you're pretty much not going to get anything good.

Personally, I'm in a situation where there are almost no players ranked ahead of me that have a lower rating than I do. I'm at 1.5 but am ranked around 200. Almost everybody around me has ratings at least 2.0 and it's a pretty safe bet that I'm going to get slaughtered if I go against them. So, I pretty much have no choice but to continue beating on the 4-5 guys that I'm pretty confident I can take in hopes of getting something cool.

At some point, I'll get tired of doing this and stop playing the game.

[Eve]

Thanks for your feedback.

We most likely will not adjust the sell-back prices of those free items. This is due to the fact that one of our next projects should be the player market, where those items can be sold to other players for a price typically better than the shop.

As far as the ratio of prize codes with items, it was adjusted because we didn't like the fact that everyone ended up with the same exact strategy while we are trying to make the game more diverse than that. We especially didn't want that strategy to strictly be farming. It's fine to farm sometimes, we all will. That just doesn't seem like the most fun to possibly hope to have here. So, it was adjusted and will probably be adjusted some more. We have the data of the frequency of items given out and always go by that to start with when making that choice. Also, once the stamina update is completed and working properly, we have many more features for the game that will also bring about new types of prizes. So, in the near future, tons of skill points won't be so easily obtained and there will be a lot more to do and new ways to gain items that you want :)

Stick with us, that's what Beta's all about! We have learned so much from player feedback while we try and develop this game the best, most balanced way possible, and have made many of our changes after listening to player requests. We definitely know about a lot of the player's current concerns with equipment so once the basic engine is finished (stamina system), we will be more prepared to take another look at items :)

[Grunty McGrunt]

I can understand their wanting to get rid of "Farming" lower level players for their goods, but in some ways it's hurt as much as helped.

I just started playing three days ago.
I started by battling everyone at the bottom & working my way up.
I'd get the occasional item here & there, but for the most part I've either gotten SP or EP.

Ok, I can see why you'd want to get rid of Farming, but for someone who's just off the starting blocks, we HAVE no other way of getting anything!
We don't start with enough EP to buy anything other than a pair of boots, so we HAVE to effectively Farm our brethren n00blets for goodies. =)P

If we stay logged in (trying to collect as many EP as possible), we're rewarded with a slow trickle of EP that takes a subjective bazillion years to accumulate until we've got enough to buy anything even remotely decent (and no, a rusty short sword with a delay of 7 billion is NOT "decent")... =}

If we log off & come back a few hours later, it's a toss-up as to which would've gotten us more EP, because either way it'll take a VERY long time to build up enough to buy anything...

In my first two days worth of battles, while yes I was getting items, most of them were spells, scrolls, or potions. That wouldn't be so bad if, when you went to sell them, they were worth ANYTHING near what the store is trying to sell them for!
If I get a scroll of instant butt-kicking that sells for 100 EP in the store, why does it only get me MAYBE 5 EP if I sell it?
That's not just unfair, it's obscene!

I guess my suggestion would be to either increase the resale value of things we get as loot so they're more in line with what the store charges for them (75% at least), and maybe give a new player one free 100 EP or less item from the store for joining?

That way they could start with either a decent weapon, semi-decent bit of armor, or some magic item that would help them from getting their faces chewed off by those of us with the sharpy-pointy-stabbity-things. =D

Anyway, I *LOVE* the game...
I just wish there was a bit more EP for me to play with. =)

PS:
To give you an idea of JUST how badly skewed the selling values are.
I just won a "Fire Bolt 10" scroll. It sold for *ONE* EP.
The closest thing I can find in the item shop at the moment is a "Fire Bolt 8" for 80 EP...
It's that kind of screwy-pricing that really twists my socks. =(
I don't mind (much) that it's worth less somehow ("the shop keeper has to make money"), but that's not "Highway Robbery", that's "Bend over the table, grab your ankles, and prepare to die!"
Like I said, I love the game, but this is just a BIT unfair, y'know? =J

[Gil]

PS:
To give you an idea of JUST how badly skewed the selling values are.
I just won a "Fire Bolt 10" scroll. It sold for *ONE* EP.
The closest thing I can find in the item shop at the moment is a "Fire Bolt 8" for 80 EP...
It's that kind of screwy-pricing that really twists my socks. =(
I don't mind (much) that it's worth less somehow ("the shop keeper has to make money"), but that's not "Highway Robbery", that's "Bend over the table, grab your ankles, and prepare to die!"
Like I said, I love the game, but this is just a BIT unfair, y'know? =J
If we raise the sell-back value, we raise the costs of everything in the game to compensate. The pricing structure is set to account for your "average" player to earn 48 EP per day. At 30 days, they can afford any UR in the shops.

Now you might say, 48 per day isn't realistic because we are forced to spend it on skills, items, battling, etc. In response, we upped the rate of EP's earned per day the longer a person stays on the site. According to the most vocal posters, they are swimming in skill points so people get a break there as well. That only leaves battling and according to most folks, they are forced to spend their points VERY slowly because of the 2 minute timer. When one does the math, your "average" player should actually have enough EP's to buy all commons and a few uncommon within a week's time.

That all being said, we are constantly scrutinizing the rate at which EP's, items and skill points are coming in and going out and we will adjust accordingly or where needed.

I would like to thank you for post a well thought out post and I do hope you do not think this a brush off or trite response.

[SamuriFish]

Read this Grunty:



We most likely will not adjust the sell-back prices of those free items. This is due to the fact that one of our next projects should be the player market, where those items can be sold to other players for a price typically better than the shop.




Lets say you could sell your 10 scroll for half of what you could buy it for. So you sell a common item and get 40 EP's (based on the number you gave) With these 40 EP's you fight 40 battles and get 40 prizes. You will probably get 1-2 uncomons and 3-5 commons. You sell all of these for half their price and now have about 150 EP's. You repeat until you have infinate EP's and can fight unlimited battles until you get all the best items in the game. See how this wouldn't work to well?

[deathbagel]

How about some sort of game of skill.. you use skill points to play a game of skill with the possibility of a big payout.. possibly have different games based off different combinations of stats (to be successful you'd have to win at the game of skill, and then if you do win the game.. you have a chance to get a nice item.. no guarentees.. but the possibilty)

I, myself, have over 600 skill points that are just sitting there.. wasting space.. :)

[FBGstevec]

If we raise the sell-back value, we raise the costs of everything in the game to compensate. The pricing structure is set to account for your "average" player to earn 48 EP per day. At 30 days, they can afford any UR in the shops.

Now you might say, 48 per day isn't realistic because we are forced to spend it on skills, items, battling, etc. In response, we upped the rate of EP's earned per day the longer a person stays on the site. According to the most vocal posters, they are swimming in skill points so people get a break there as well. That only leaves battling and according to most folks, they are forced to spend their points VERY slowly because of the 2 minute timer. When one does the math, your "average" player should actually have enough EP's to buy all commons and a few uncommon within a week's time.

That all being said, we are constantly scrutinizing the rate at which EP's, items and skill points are coming in and going out and we will adjust accordingly or where needed.

I would like to thank you for post a well thought out post and I do hope you do not think this a brush off or trite response.

This is my first post. I've been playing for about 2 days, and I realize what my biggest mistake was - buying what seemed like a decent weapon at the store for most of my starting EP. I'm doing okay despite that, although I just recently got up to all weapon slots filled.

I think this game is hard on new players with no real idea what to do. I think one way to balance this might sort of what was suggested above with a free item - but instead of free (which causes variability in what they get based on what's there the first time they shop), you could give each player maybe 3-4 "coupons" good at the store that you can use only one per purchase, and they are only worth a small amount - no more than 50 EP each, but probably less. That way everyone who starts can do a little customizing, and start with some equipment that fits their chosen class(es).

[Qozux]

This is my first post. I've been playing for about 2 days, and I realize what my biggest mistake was - buying what seemed like a decent weapon at the store for most of my starting EP. I'm doing okay despite that, although I just recently got up to all weapon slots filled.

I think this game is hard on new players with no real idea what to do. I think one way to balance this might sort of what was suggested above with a free item - but instead of free (which causes variability in what they get based on what's there the first time they shop), you could give each player maybe 3-4 "coupons" good at the store that you can use only one per purchase, and they are only worth a small amount - no more than 50 EP each, but probably less. That way everyone who starts can do a little customizing, and start with some equipment that fits their chosen class(es).

Finally, a smart FBG :p

[Gil]

I, myself, have over 600 skill points that are just sitting there.. wasting space.. :)
I myself, feel just horrible that so many people have a lot of skill points just wasting away. I feel so bad infact, I've had an idea on how to help alleviate this situation.

Call it an inspiration of sorts.

More to follow...

[Gil]

I think this game is hard on new players with no real idea what to do. I think one way to balance this might sort of what was suggested above with a free item - but instead of free (which causes variability in what they get based on what's there the first time they shop), you could give each player maybe 3-4 "coupons" good at the store that you can use only one per purchase, and they are only worth a small amount - no more than 50 EP each, but probably less. That way everyone who starts can do a little customizing, and start with some equipment that fits their chosen class(es).
I've had a few ideas on how to help new players out and Z and I have discussed a few ideas as well.

I'll throw this one into the mix as well :).

[Qozux]

I myself, feel just horrible that so many people have a lot of skill points just wasting away. I feel so bad infact, I've had an idea on how to help alleviate this situation.

Call it an inspiration of sorts.

More to follow...
I have a feeling we may not like you after this.

Thanks for whinning everybody, now you've upset Gil.

[Gil]

I have a feeling we may not like you after this.

Thanks for whinning everybody, now you've upset Gil.
LOL, I'm not upset :)

I just hate seeing things go to waste especially when I have such good ideas on how to use them.

[Athion]

Just make the rank III Prize codes hand out more weapons (or items in general)... a starting player takes a LOOOOONG time to get going, which seems to be counterintuitive... you want to get em hooked early, then make em drag it out :P

[ft_ball_fan]

Just make the rank III Prize codes hand out more weapons (or items in general)... a starting player takes a LOOOOONG time to get going, which seems to be counterintuitive... you want to get em hooked early, then make em drag it out :P

I think you could make Rank III prize codes only commons.. but make them give out weapons/armor/spells (not SP's) far more frequently so they can compete (battling over and over and everything being a DRAW is BORING. When people sign up they want to DO SOMETHING--buy something.. fight some battles, etc... signing up and then WAITING to bankroll EP's so that you can buy something isn't how you get them hooked. Until they have a few weapon slots filled they can't get anything but a loss or draw...)

[Grunty McGrunt]

LOL, I'm not upset :)

I just hate seeing things go to waste especially when I have such good ideas on how to use them.


You mean like letting the players with "too many" give a ton to those of us with "not enough"? =)P
(Holds out his Orcish hands, cupped, waiting for a giant infusion of Skill Points to apply to his stats...) =D

[Wyatt]

LOL, I'm not upset :)

I just hate seeing things go to waste especially when I have such good ideas on how to use them.

Can't wait to see what you've got in store for us :p

You mean like letting the players with "too many" give a ton to those of us with "not enough"? =)P
(Holds out his Orcish hands, cupped, waiting for a giant infusion of Skill Points to apply to his stats...) =D

I've got 900 or so extra, how many would you like :)

[Grunty McGrunt]

I've got 900 or so extra, how many would you like :)

I don't want to sound greedy, but how about 100-140?
I think I'm at 360, so another 100 would let me nearly fill my SP tree, and 140 *would* max it out.

(Holds out his Orcish hands, smiling like a kid in the candy store with a $100 bill in his pocket.) =D

[Wyatt]

I've got 900 or so extra, how many would you like :)

I don't want to sound greedy, but how about 100-140?
I think I'm at 360, so another 100 would let me nearly fill my SP tree, and 140 *would* max it out.

(Holds out his Orcish hands, smiling like a kid in the candy store with a $100 bill in his pocket.) =D

If there was a way, I'd gladly "donate" 150 to you Grunty.... at least I'd be able to do something with them that way :cool:

Plus then when you're a big bad 3.4 rated Orc you may find in it your heart to take it easy on me :p

[Grunty McGrunt]

(Lets his Orcish hands drop slow, the smile of anticipation drains off his face, & his Orcish charming smile dissolves.)
You tease Grunt.
You Meanie Bad McMeanie.
Grunt fart in your Cheerios from now on.

=)P hehehehehe

Ok, the thought was there, so I'll accept that if you COULD, you would have.
But I should still fart in your Cheerios. =)P hehehehe