[dev] Open discussion with Developers

[Zeras]

Since we are nearing the end of development on the core game engine (CGE), I figured it would be helpful if we had a thread where you (the players) could talk to us (the developers) about your concerns.

Please use this thread constructively. Do no just say something sucks .. explain why you don't like it or why it ruins the game for you. Do not insult, just explain.

I will start it off by explaining a few things and why we do things a certain way that you may not understand.

I have been a developer for many years and one thing I have learned from that experience is to focus on specific areas one at a time. When you divide your attention among too many areas, you end up in a never ending see-saw scenario where everything you change in one area, messes up one or more other areas.

So, when we realized that the current stamina system was not consistently effective, we disabled it. Rather than rush to stick our latest solution for stamina online, we decided to test it.

The constant Ranking System changes showed us that dramatically changing the concept of certain areas several times is very frustrating and very hard to keep up with. The reason we tried it that way was because it seemed most of you wanted to see regular updates and that was what we were working on so we went live with it.

We finally found a ranking system that we feel works the best. It may need a few tweaks from time to time, but the main concept behind it is the final concept. The downside is we subjected you guys to so many variations, it's been hard for anyone to keep up with how the final version works. More details will be given on this in upcoming documentation.

Over the last 2 weeks, we have spent a lot of time discussing exactly what needs to be done to finish the core game engine. We really wanted to fix the areas that players hated if at all possible but in a way that will keep our servers from becoming overloaded and will allow the game to grow at a sustainable pace.

So, rather than throwing quick fixes online, we decided to take a step back and re-evaluate the entire game. We listened to what the users were complaining about or questioning constantly in the game and have tried to come up with solutions that will work for everyone. Unfortunately, some times that is not possible, but we at least wanted to try our best.

For example, we know the two things that users have been complaining about more than anything else have been the lack of items entering the game and the 2 minute timer.

As a result, we focused on coming up with alternatives. Unfortunately, due to server load issues, we cannot allow users to fight back-to-back without some sort of limitation. However, we have come up with a new idea that we feel will solve this. Hopefully, you will like it.

For the items, our goal was to create a way for items to enter the game a lot more often without making 95% of them worthless and without creating major balance issues. We believe we have come up with a solution for this as well. Translation, after the update, you will receive more items than you are receiving now!

I know you guys assume we don't listen to you because we don't immediately agree with your suggestions or because we don't stop everything to make the changes, but this is not the case. Every suggestion is added to our future consideration list even if we say we cannot or will not do it. The reason is because as other areas of the game change or expand, it is possible that your suggestion will become viable then. Sometimes, a new way to implement it without hurting the game engine will come to mind later as well.

When you post suggestions, complaints, etc. we do listen. Really, we do! But we can't just wildly do things without at least considering how it will affect the game.

For example, if we made it easy to get UltraRare items, then no one would want the rest of the items and soon, most players would say the game is boring and we need to add new items. We know this because it happened already weeks ago.

No one wants a game where every player has the best items in the game because at that point, they are the same items which means battles would become nothing more than a coin flip for the most part.

I know many of you have said that the game is boring, that you hate it, that you only play it once a day, etc. but the bottom line is you are still playing it. That shows you care about it whether you want to admit it or not and we care about it even more!

Why not spend the time trying to understand why we say we can't do something and helping us come up with another alternative that will work for everyone? Why not be a little patient with us since we have dedicated months of our lives to this and the game is still in beta?

We want EverWars to eventually be the best web/text-based MMORPG on the internet but we can't do that if you spend most of your time insulting us or posting sarcastic comments rather than truly trying to help us achieve that goal.

-Z

[deathbagel]

We do appreciate all of your and Gil's hard work, and most of us are here in hopes that this game will make it the distance and become a truly great game. It is going in the right direction I think.. I am looking forward to this weeks update!

I still do think there should be an outlet for unused skill points.. even if you guys bump up the cost, like Gil wants to do, eventually.. people will wind up with a ton of them (this might change with the update.. I realise :) ) I still like my game of skills idea, even make it so you win things not able to be acquired by other means.. like rare avatars.. or the ability to custom name an item you have.. or the ability to earn new skills.. I don't know what's implementable or what isn't.. but those are just some random ideas I'll throw out there :)

[FFToday]

That was a very well thought out and stated post Zeras. I think I speak for many players when I say that we really do appreciate all of the hard work put in by you and your staff. You guys are doing a great job so far.

The thing I am anticipating the most is the player market. I would like to be able to sell some of my extra items and get a fair price for them. I think it's a little out of balance when a rare items sells for 300 + EP's in the item shop, but you can only sell it back for 15 EP's.

I also like the idea that some one had brought up about having a bonus of sorts for wearing matching armor (all celestrium for instance). It doesn't have to be huge, but it would make it more of a challenge to find all teh pieces that go into that category.

Another thing I thought of....Is it possible to create "one of a kind" items? I think it would be cool to have an item I know no other player has. Don't know if it can be done but just thought I would throw it out there.

The blacksmith idea was good as well. Where you could upgrade a piece (from polished to pristine etc). It would cost X amount of EP's and you could only upgrade it one level.

That is about all I can think of at the moment. I can't wait for the update this week. Keep up the good work.

[Gil]

The thing I am anticipating the most is the player market. I would like to be able to sell some of my extra items and get a fair price for them. I think it's a little out of balance when a rare items sells for 300 + EP's in the item shop, but you can only sell it back for 15 EP's.
I know it seems out of whack on the sell back price but if we raised the sellback price, we would have to raise the cost of everything in the game to account for the sudden influx of money to keep everything in ratio.

Now please keep in mind, we are keeping a close eye on the "economy" of the game and we will make adjustments if need be. The current pricing structure is set up to account for the current income of EP's based solely upon how many the average player can earn a day. Variables that can affect this is average items earned from prize codes AND the potential EP's a person can earn by camping out on the site everyday.

[Gil]

I also like the idea that some one had brought up about having a bonus of sorts for wearing matching armor (all celestrium for instance). It doesn't have to be huge, but it would make it more of a challenge to find all teh pieces that go into that category.

Another thing I thought of....Is it possible to create "one of a kind" items? I think it would be cool to have an item I know no other player has. Don't know if it can be done but just thought I would throw it out there.

The blacksmith idea was good as well. Where you could upgrade a piece (from polished to pristine etc). It would cost X amount of EP's and you could only upgrade it one level.
Thanks for posting these suggestions :). We have got some of these down on the future considerations or to do list but it is nice to see other people suggesting them as well.

[Gil]

I still do think there should be an outlet for unused skill points.. even if you guys bump up the cost, like Gil wants to do, eventually.. people will wind up with a ton of them (this might change with the update.. I realise :) ) I still like my game of skills idea, even make it so you win things not able to be acquired by other means.. like rare avatars.. or the ability to custom name an item you have.. or the ability to earn new skills.. I don't know what's implementable or what isn't.. but those are just some random ideas I'll throw out there :)
I don't know if you missed the post but we are seriously considering capping out SP's. Of course, nothing is carved in stone and there *is* an update looming large in the rearview mirror :D .

And yes, I would still like to bump up skill costs ;) .

[FBG_HULK]

About the skill points:

I know it has been brought up before that there will likely be the ability to switch races at some point in the future.

Maybe, make it cost 2000 skill points to do that, and I'll have to save up for quite a while.

[deathbagel]

I don't know if you missed the post but we are seriously considering capping out SP's. Of course, nothing is carved in stone and there *is* an update looming large in the rearview mirror :D .

And yes, I would still like to bump up skill costs ;) .
hence the.. "I know this may change in the update" line I threw in ;)

I know you guys are looking at all sorts of things for the game, and I don't read every post.. just most of them.. ;)

Keep up the good work!

[_slic_]

It sucks...it all sucks...every bit if it sucks.....:D just kidding

the first part of this post is aimed at Z ,,,, please bear with me .

first let me say congratulations on nearing the end of the CGE phae of the development of Everwars. I am not a dev and really have no idea how hard it is to do ANY of the things I suggest that I think would make the game better. Im sure the vast majority have no clue either. what we do know, and what should be of value to you, is when I dont like a particular aspect of the game too much I say so. Sometimes I have specific suggestiond how to "fix" what I see as a problem, again having ZERO idea how hard it would be to implement and zero idea how it would fit in the big picture. I take ZERO offense when any or all of my suggestions are either dismissed as not a god idea or not doable right now cause again I dont have the big picture or knowlege to know some things.

Having read this post and several like it I can see and read the passion Gil, Eve, and especially Zeras has for this game ....so much so that sometimes I kinda get the feeling that from Z's perspective we are attacking one of her children, when I have a specific Idea what to do I voice that idea but sometimes I just really have no clue what to do, however just voicing an opinion about an area of the game which I dont like so well should have some value to you all, even if I dont know what to do to fix it. often someone says I dont like X,,,,,and on our end someone else says ....well I think doing Y would be a good way to fix X.... and im sure there are such discussions alot on the dev end too.

I guess what im saying is that I feel that I think it would be more productive in the long run if each time you all read a whining post what you get out of that is slic or whomever wrote the post doesnt like this aspect of the game and has no specific suggestion as to how to make it better.

ok off my soapbox :)

2 suggestions::

polls..... is there any way to make pols in this forum? or upgrade the forum to accepth them? the reason I say this is because polls are a way for those who do not have a specific idea to fix a problem to have their imput recorded without coming off as a whiner. It also is a way to get more....often much more...imput on a subject... lets face it reading the forumn the same group of names appear...I know other people read the porums but just dont post....the silent majoritys opinion is valuable as well and with polls you would have more imput... lets face it when you play EW you get to be an expert clicker :D and even the non poster might very well click a poll.

2. lost battles ...while I agree lost battles initiated by someone else should not count in your ranking...( face it if some higher rank farms you repeatedly no way should that count against you)

but I DO strongly feel like battles lost that YOU initiate should afect your rating . maybe you could including them in the ranking calculations in some way, albeit wins should mean more than losses...but they should count Imho

what bugs me is that say im at rank 10 and cannot really beat anybody above me so battlin g them is hopeless...... so i beat # 11 a few times and call it a day.....now #11 even though he loses to me most of the time battles me many times and beats me a few... as I understand it he would eventually pass me in the rankings and thats just not fair. I suggest that losses that you initiate count in some way toward your ranking to prevent people from moving up this way. maybe you get 3 points in the ranking formula for a win but 1 point deducted for losing a battle you initiated....again I have no clue how it works but I am an expert on wat bugs me....and it bugs me :D

in closing any and all points made in this post were intended to help. not gripe . do with them what you will . if what you get out of this is..... slic= long winded non spelling blowhard ill take no offense :D . what I so know is that you guys are passionate about this game and it shows ...keep up the good work:)

p.s. looking forward to the update and relearning how to play Everwars yet again :)

[jujube]

I know it seems out of whack on the sell back price but if we raised the sellback price, we would have to raise the cost of everything in the game to account for the sudden influx of money to keep everything in ratio.


This is not the first time this reason has been given but I don't really buy it. It simply doesn't make sense from a basic economic standpoint. The spread is so insanely large that you could make a significant change to the sell back price and it would still take a long time for someone to be able to buy the higher end wares at the shop.

For instance, there are currently a pair of Wyrvenscale gloves for sale for 480 EP. You could raise the sell back price of a UC item 4X and one would still have to deplete their entire bank of goodies (if they had nothing but UC items) plus save up another 80 EP on top of that to afford those gloves. It hardly seems like there would be a crazy run on things.

Frankly, the item shop is a bit of a joke right now. There are basically two sets of people who have any use for it at all. There are brand new players who simply need a basic club or dagger just to get started and there are the very top players who have so much good stuff that their needs simply can't be addressed by fighting and hoping for upgrades. For everyone in between (basically 95% of us), nothing in there makes any sense to buy. 80 EP for an 8 power spell? Are you joking me? You'd have to be the unluckiest person alive to not get something better than that if you spent those 80 EP fighting instead. Or, at very least get 3 or 4 things valued at at least 50 EP.

So, the notion that raising the sell back price on items would cause a massive increase in item shop sales seems to me to be a good thing. As it stands, it is completely valueless to me so it seems like that would take something that might as well not exist into something of use.

Beyond that, not every item within C, UC, R, or UR should have the same re-sale value. They certainly don't in the shop. It would seem the logical thing to do to determine a value for each and every item in EverWars and then make the resale 20% of that. Having to trade back 5 items to get something no better than any of them but simply more along the lines of what you need seems fair. It would make the game significantly more interesting, I assure you.

[Zeras]

It sucks...it all sucks...every bit if it sucks.....:D just kidding

the first part of this post is aimed at Z ,,,, please bear with me .

first let me say congratulations on nearing the end of the CGE phae of the development of Everwars. I am not a dev and really have no idea how hard it is to do ANY of the things I suggest that I think would make the game better. Im sure the vast majority have no clue either. what we do know, and what should be of value to you, is when I dont like a particular aspect of the game too much I say so. Sometimes I have specific suggestiond how to "fix" what I see as a problem, again having ZERO idea how hard it would be to implement and zero idea how it would fit in the big picture. I take ZERO offense when any or all of my suggestions are either dismissed as not a god idea or not doable right now cause again I dont have the big picture or knowlege to know some things.

Having read this post and several like it I can see and read the passion Gil, Eve, and especially Zeras has for this game ....so much so that sometimes I kinda get the feeling that from Z's perspective we are attacking one of her children, when I have a specific Idea what to do I voice that idea but sometimes I just really have no clue what to do, however just voicing an opinion about an area of the game which I dont like so well should have some value to you all, even if I dont know what to do to fix it. often someone says I dont like X,,,,,and on our end someone else says ....well I think doing Y would be a good way to fix X.... and im sure there are such discussions alot on the dev end too.

I guess what im saying is that I feel that I think it would be more productive in the long run if each time you all read a whining/ bitching post what you get out of that is slic or whomever wrote the post doesnt like this aspect of the game and has no specific suggestion as to how to make it better.

ok off my soapbox :)

2 suggestions::

polls..... is there any way to make pols in this forum? or upgrade the forum to accepth them? the reason I say this is because polls are a way for those who do not have a specific idea to fix a problem to have their imput recorded without coming off as a whiner. It also is a way to get more....often much more...imput on a subject... lets face it reading the forumn the same group of names appear...I know other people read the porums but just dont post....the silent majoritys opinion is valuable as well and with polls you would have more imput... lets face it when you play EW you get to be an expert clicker :D and even the non poster might very well click a poll.

2. lost battles ...while I agree lost battles initiated by someone else should not count in your ranking...( face it if some higher rank farms you repeatedly no way should that count against you)

but I DO strongly feel like battles lost that YOU initiate should afect your rating . maybe you could including them in the ranking calculations in some way, albeit wins should mean more than losses...but they should count Imho

what bugs me is that say im at rank 10 and cannot really beat anybody above me so battlin g them is hopeless...... so i beat # 11 a few times and call it a day.....now #11 even though he loses to me most of the time battles me many times and beats me a few... as I understand it he would eventually pass me in the rankings and thats just not fair. I suggest that losses that you initiate count in some way toward your ranking to prevent people from moving up this way. maybe you get 3 points in the ranking formula for a win but 1 point deducted for losing a battle you initiated....again I have no clue how it works but I am an expert on wat bugs me....and it bugs me :D

in closing any and all points made in this post were intended to help. not gripe . do with them what you will . if what you get out of this is..... slic= long winded non spelling blowhard ill take no offense :D . what I so know is that you guys are passionate about this game and it shows ...keep up the good work:)

p.s. looking forward to the update and relearning how to play Everwars yet again :)
Thank you very much for the kinds words :)

See, I really do like people who voice their opinion. It's just a lot better when they try to understand our side and maybe make suggestions on how we can solve the problem.

For example, people who say "I hate ads on web sites" don't understand that without ads, there would be no websites. Those same people say "I hate paying for web sites". You have to find a way that both sides can be satisfied.

In this case, players hate the 2 minute timer. Without it, the servers are overloaded and those same users would complain about a slow site which in a sense would make the process of battling during heavy server load periods take several minutes.

We want to make the game fun and playable .. really, we do. Without that, we're are just wasting time. At the same time, we need to keep the game playable for a long time and the web performance at an acceptable rate. God mode may make a game more fun for the moment, but once the moment is over, the game is boring from now on.

As for your suggestions ..

Polls will be activated soon but in a limited manner. Right now, polls would just be abused to show everyone wants no timer, unlimited ultrarares, etc. I'd like a billion dollars and I'm sure other users would too but just because we all want it doesn't mean the banks will give it to us. :) Polls are coming though.

As for losing affecting your rank, I completely agree. In fact, just one or two days ago I said that I do want to come up with a way that losing battles negatively affects you in some way. I'm leaning toward some type of ranking penalty for losing.

We are very excited to be nearing the end of CGE development. You can't even imagine how excited we are about this. We have been looking forward to finally working on ADDITIONS to the game instead of rewriting for months. I can't wait to see how the player market improves the game!

-Z

[Zeras]

This is not the first time this reason has been given but I don't really buy it. It simply doesn't make sense from a basic economic standpoint. The spread is so insanely large that you could make a significant change to the sell back price and it would still take a long time for someone to be able to buy the higher end wares at the shop.

For instance, there are currently a pair of Wyrvenscale gloves for sale for 480 EP. You could raise the sell back price of a UC item 4X and one would still have to deplete their entire bank of goodies (if they had nothing but UC items) plus save up another 80 EP on top of that to afford those gloves. It hardly seems like there would be a crazy run on things.

Frankly, the item shop is a bit of a joke right now. There are basically two sets of people who have any use for it at all. There are brand new players who simply need a basic club or dagger just to get started and there are the very top players who have so much good stuff that their needs simply can't be addressed by fighting and hoping for upgrades. For everyone in between (basically 95% of us), nothing in there makes any sense to buy. 80 EP for an 8 power spell? Are you joking me? You'd have to be the unluckiest person alive to not get something better than that if you spent those 80 EP fighting instead. Or, at very least get 3 or 4 things valued at at least 50 EP.

So, the notion that raising the sell back price on items would cause a massive increase in item shop sales seems to me to be a good thing. As it stands, it is completely valueless to me so it seems like that would take something that might as well not exist into something of use.

Beyond that, not every item within C, UC, R, or UR should have the same re-sale value. They certainly don't in the shop. It would seem the logical thing to do to determine a value for each and every item in EverWars and then make the resale 20% of that. Having to trade back 5 items to get something no better than any of them but simply more along the lines of what you need seems fair. It would make the game significantly more interesting, I assure you.
So, you don't see selling an item that you got for FREE from a prize for let's say 200 everpoints to be a problem when it just gave you a chance to win 200 more items (200 battles at 1ep each)?

When we increased the item-rewards for prize codes recently, that one change alone made it possible for players to battle non-stop against players at the bottom of their own ranking groups. We would have to change the price to battle to be 100-200 everpoints per battle if we were to increase sell back rates.

What about the other features we have planned? Do you want to see a 200ep cost for selling an item in the player market no matter how cheap the item is? The items in the in-game shops would be increased at least 10-20 times in price.

See, the one thing you have to remember is that the bulk of items that players own came from Prize Codes (aka: cost them 1 everpoint to get). Letting you sell an item for 80ep that you paid 1ep for is a fast way to ruin a game economy.

You might as well say just give me the best items in the game because with increased sell back rates, it would probably take a week to have all of the best items in the game equipped.

-Z

[jujube]

So, you don't see selling an item that you got for FREE from a prize for let's say 200 everpoints to be a problem when it just gave you a chance to win 200 more items (200 battles at 1ep each)?

When we increased the item-rewards for prize codes recently, that one change alone made it possible for players to battle non-stop against players at the bottom of their own ranking groups. We would have to change the price to battle to be 100-200 everpoints per battle if we were to increase sell back rates.

What about the other features we have planned? Do you want to see a 200ep cost for selling an item in the player market no matter how cheap the item is? The items in the in-game shops would be increased at least 10-20 times in price.

See, the one thing you have to remember is that the bulk of items that players own came from Prize Codes (aka: cost them 1 everpoint to get). Letting you sell an item for 80ep that you paid 1ep for is a fast way to ruin a game economy.

You might as well say just give me the best items in the game because with increased sell back rates, it would probably take a week to have all of the best items in the game equipped.

-Z
With all due respect, and at the risk of sounding confrontational, I really don't think you read or at least understood my comments at all. Further, you seem to be taking a rather confrontational tone with me and twisting my statements for effect. Honestly, I'm just trying to point things out.

To begin with, where did you get the resale of 200 EP number from? I mentioned 4X current (which is either 4,20,60, or whatever 4X a UR costs). I also mentioned 20% of store value which would only be 200 for something that retails for 1000 EP (I'm guessing nothing anyone would ever think of selling costs this much).

In terms of referring to the items as "free" is also quite a stretch. It is all about opportunity costs. It likely takes you about 25-50 battles to get a UC item. So, the cost is at least 25-50 for those. I say at least because you can also go through a stretch where you don't get any for a really long time. Again, based on either of my suggestions for resale value, a UC item that you are likely to spend 25-50 EP in battle for would fetch between 20 and 50 EP. A rare item that you might only find every 100 or so battles would fetch between 60 and 100 EP. How is this so out of whack?

Back to my point. Does anyone besides the two types I mention ever use the shop? How many Fireball 8 spells have you guys sold for 80EP? How many Strength Amulet 4 have you sold? If you've sold any at all, you've sold them to people who have no idea about how to play this game. So, forgive me for suggesting something that would turn an entire segment of your game from being totally meaningless to having some value.

In terms of your "Have everything you want in a week" comment. Let's examine that. I play about as often as anyone and it would certainly take me at least a week to claim 20 UC items in battle. Based on what I've suggested, I would be able to turn those in for about one Rare. Thus, it would take several months for me to parlay that into being completely stocked with rare items. Though, I understand, a week sounds much better when you're trying to make a point.

Honestly, I feel I made fine arguments and got nothing but rhetoric and snide comments back. Nothing you said addressed these valid points. Sorry to bring these up, but they're very true.

[Dellen]

On Zeras's side, I have been playing for a week, and have almost complete UC or better gear...And while sometimes I would wish I got more back in terms of EP sellback value, I understand that such an influx would be detrimental to the game. The people complaining are the people who have less UR's than those people above them. It is frustrating not standing a chance against someone because they have better equipment, but think about how much better off they would be with the changes you would like? You guys all complain about all the leftover skill points, if they increased the EP's, there would be too many for people to spend with the 2 min timer.

You're playing a free game that Zeras, Eve, Gil, and even Sadistic when he's not slacking have busted there butts off for years now. No matter what they do, someone is unhappy. Think about it like it was something you had spent probably 5000+ hours to create, and no matter what you did, people complained about...You're lucky they choose to host this game, just say thank you, and play with the rules they implement...

If there is change you would like, and you list it, and they say they've thought about it and discarded it...Let it go...Theres atleast 4 minds there working together to create a great product...They dont make decisions on a whim...So trust them

I've been here for probably 2+ years total...And the game has steadily improved...They are working their butts off, give them the benefit of the doubt

[jujube]

On Zeras's side, I have been playing for a week, and have almost complete UC or better gear...And while sometimes I would wish I got more back in terms of EP sellback value, I understand that such an influx would be detrimental to the game. The people complaining are the people who have less UR's than those people above them. It is frustrating not standing a chance against someone because they have better equipment, but think about how much better off they would be with the changes you would like? You guys all complain about all the leftover skill points, if they increased the EP's, there would be too many for people to spend with the 2 min timer.

You're playing a free game that Zeras, Eve, Gil, and even Sadistic when he's not slacking have busted there asses off for years now. No matter what they do, someone is unhappy. Think about it like it was something you had spent probably 5000+ hours to create, and no matter what you did, people complained about...You're lucky they choose to host this game, just say thank you, and play with the rules they implement...

If there is change you would like, and you list it, and they say they've thought about it and discarded it...Let it go...Theres atleast 4 minds there working together to create a great product...They dont make decisions on a whim...So trust them

I've been here for probably 2+ years total...And the game has steadily improved...They are working their butts off, give them the benefit of the doubt
For starters, I'm not just universally complaining for the hell of it. My points are valid and I understand economics enough not to just buy the inflation theory without something to back it up. I didn't get worked up until Zeras made a point of misquoting me and suggesting that I wanted something far more extensive than I said.

I've made my points regarding resale so I won't bother repeating myself.

In terms of busting out the violins for these guys. This site sells ads, this site likely either already makes somebody some money or will at some point. So, if there are flaws in this game and they ask us for feedback then they're going to get feedback.

I understand the bit about 2 minutes per attack. I'm not asking to get UR goodies every time I attack. I invite any number of new features that make this game harder. I understand that every action has a reaction and that, just like me, the dudes ahead of me also have mad jack to sell back to the store and will improve themselves.

I made the bold, and apparently completely out of line, statement that making the spread between resale and retail small would not create economic chaos, but rather would actually make the Item shop (something they bothered to create), not completely useless to nearly everyone who plays this game. Is that really such a crime?

[zodo]

rar

Seeing as Zeras has made it clear that my opinion is unwelcome, I really have nothing to add to this conversation that she will listen to.

I do hope that things do improve as much as Gil expects they will.

rar

[Zeras]

With all due respect, and at the risk of sounding confrontational, I really don't think you read or at least understood my comments at all. Further, you seem to be taking a rather confrontational tone with me and twisting my statements for effect. Honestly, I'm just trying to point things out.

To begin with, where did you get the resale of 200 EP number from? I mentioned 4X current (which is either 4,20,60, or whatever 4X a UR costs). I also mentioned 20% of store value which would only be 200 for something that retails for 1000 EP (I'm guessing nothing anyone would ever think of selling costs this much).

In terms of referring to the items as "free" is also quite a stretch. It is all about opportunity costs. It likely takes you about 25-50 battles to get a UC item. So, the cost is at least 25-50 for those. I say at least because you can also go through a stretch where you don't get any for a really long time. Again, based on either of my suggestions for resale value, a UC item that you are likely to spend 25-50 EP in battle for would fetch between 20 and 50 EP. A rare item that you might only find every 100 or so battles would fetch between 60 and 100 EP. How is this so out of whack?

Back to my point. Does anyone besides the two types I mention ever use the shop? How many Fireball 8 spells have you guys sold for 80EP? How many Strength Amulet 4 have you sold? If you've sold any at all, you've sold them to people who have no idea about how to play this game. So, forgive me for suggesting something that would turn an entire segment of your game from being totally meaningless to having some value.

In terms of your "Have everything you want in a week" comment. Let's examine that. I play about as often as anyone and it would certainly take me at least a week to claim 20 UC items in battle. Based on what I've suggested, I would be able to turn those in for about one Rare. Thus, it would take several months for me to parlay that into being completely stocked with rare items. Though, I understand, a week sounds much better when you're trying to make a point.

Honestly, I feel I made fine arguments and got nothing but rhetoric and snide comments back. Nothing you said addressed these valid points. Sorry to bring these up, but they're very true.
Actually, if I was irritated or upset, I would not have responded at all. I would not have gone through a lengthy attempt at explaining the problem with what you suggested if it did not matter to me.

I had no bad feelings toward you and see, that's the problem. I tend to be a VERY straight forward person when I reply to posts. Just because I don't put a ton of "lol" and :D :) in my posts does not mean I'm irritated, mad, upset, etc.

I honestly was just trying to explain why doing what you are asking would require major increases to prices across the board.

The one thing that most people don't even know is that during closed beta, with 10 people playing, we actually used the sell back percentage system. In fact, a sell-back percentage was how we designed the game to work. We tried 50% originally and then lowered it down to 10, then finally 5%. What we found was within 1-2 weeks, every player had the best items. This was a proven result from a live game. The closed beta testers can back me up on this .. everyone gained items way too quickly which eliminated most of the non-uber items and created a boring game.

:D :) .. just so no one thinks I'm posting this with anything other than a desire to explain the situation.

-Z

[Zeras]

rar

Seeing as Zeras has made it clear that my opinion is unwelcome, I really have nothing to add to this conversation that she will listen to.

rar
Thank you for proving my point! When you get sarcastic comments directed at you constantly, how would you react eventually?

The fact that I'm still here trying to explain things as thoroughly as I possibly can instead of just saying, "It's the way we want it, deal with it or leave" shows that we are trying.

However, I am left with comments like this repeatedly.

A normal developer would have quit posting long ago because every time I do, I'm sure the first person who posts something negative will be followed up with a post like the above that contains nothing helpful, only insults and sarcasm directed at people who are trying their best to explain things.

-Z

[Sadistic]

rar

Seeing as Zeras has made it clear that my opinion is unwelcome, I really have nothing to add to this conversation that she will listen to.

I do hope that things do improve as much as Gil expects they will.

rar

Then why even post? If your opinion isn't welcome, don't waste the space.

[FBG_OChaos]

Then why even post? If your opinion isn't welcome, don't waste the space.

Pot, meet kettle...

Any of the other developers are qualified to comment on out of place sarcastic comments, but I don't think someone that has 80% + of their posts being sarcastic in nature should have any room to criticize this post.

Why dont you call him an "Idiot" while you are at it?

[Sadistic]

Because he isn't an idiot. Obviously...

Or that would've been in my post.

My opinion being welcome to you doesn't mean anything what so ever.

My point was, if he knows that his opinion isn't welcome.. Why even post that? It's pointless unless he's trying to get attention.

[Eve]

He has as much right to comment as zodo, zeras or anyone else, whether each post he makes is useful to the masses or sarcastic. That's his way of bluntly putting things and sometimes I wish I could be a bit more bold instead of dressing everything up. Sadistic has no patience and has no problems speaking his honest mind.
It's sarcasm, wit, whatever you want to call it, and should just be taken at face value.

Let's get the thread back on topic, this isn't the forum thread to complain about developers/staff personally. Start a new thread for that in OT please.

[Sadistic]

Lets not get this thread back on topic, lets get it to the truth..

This forum has become entirely overrun with whining little brats that think they run this game. Which they don't.

It's developers versus users right now, and it's pathetic. It's like this all over the internet, go look at any game based forum. Everyone is there to whine and complain.

"do this differently, do that differnetly, god if I had made this game it would've been sooo much better."

You didn't make the game.. That's where it ends. Play it, don't play it. But complaining about the game doesn't make it better.

[FBG_OChaos]

Lets not get this thread back on topic, lets get it to the truth..

This forum has become entirely overrun with whining little brats that think they run this game. Which they don't.

It's developers versus users right now, and it's pathetic. It's like this all over the internet, go look at any game based forum. Everyone is there to whine and complain.

"do this differently, do that differnetly, god if I had made this game it would've been sooo much better."

You didn't make the game.. That's where it ends. Play it, don't play it. But complaining about the game doesn't make it better.

And the truth comes out...

Well big guy, I have personally offered coding assistance, but thats neither here nor there. User are only telling you things because the staff asks for feeback.

Also, I may be sarcastic, but I am far from a whiny little brat.. I have news for you, YES, the players DO run the game... with out the players, this game would be nothing like what it is today, so get off your high horse.

You think this little bit of complaining is bad now? What the heck do you think is going to happen when you have 20k, 30k users...

[Sadistic]

I am on absolutely no high horse. Lets get that straight right now.

Congratulations for you and offering your coding help. And yes, feedback was asked for. I do agree with you there, but constructive feedback is what common sense should tell you to use. My comments are hardly aimed at you. I hardly look down upon you. You're just the only one responding. I'd gladly bicker with one of the people that I was aiming my non sarcastic comments to. I mean exactly what I said. I think most of the people here are whining brats.

And no.. The players do NOT run the game. If you weren't here, other would be. So don't give me that. I'm not a "the customer is right" kind of person, because lets face it, the customer is a flat out idiot and they're right when I tell them they are.

The developers run the game, they can turn it off, take it away, keep it running. That's just how it is. That is the truth. And that will ALWAYS be the truth.

In my personal opinion, the forum would be a lot more docile with 20K users. Because then you would have a much larger Nazi idealed moderator staff to obliterate any and all whining. Which would be personally trained by myself. <--- A little on a high horse there

Lets face it.. I bet if we sat down and actually talked, we would probably see eye to eye on this, but right now it's a bit of a pissing match which is fine, but come look at it from my side. I read this junk everyday, as do you. If you were the one that didn't get the appreciatation for your product you would be just as upset. Feedback is a given, it has to happen. That way the product can be tailored. Again, it's a product. You have to take it how it is.

This isn't Legos man... You can't make it what you want. We do that. Give us a bit of a break for all the time we spend making this for thousands to enjoy. It's going to have speed bumps along the way. So lets just agree you and I, right now.. That if we see whining, we do our part to try and end it. I'll even stop being such a prick, if I know I have someone that can at least see it from my point of view.

Fair enough?

[FBGOnetime]

I don't know if you missed the post but we are seriously considering capping out SP's. Of course, nothing is carved in stone and there *is* an update looming large in the rearview mirror :D .

And yes, I would still like to bump up skill costs ;) .

If its in the rear-view mirror, that would mean its behind us...Am I missing something?:D

[Eve]

Means it's closing in fast :)

[Gil]

If its in the rear-view mirror, that would mean its behind us...Am I missing something?:D
Heh heh, I was thinking looming in the rear-view mirror in a "Duel" sorta way. Which of course make all of us the Dennis Weaver role which is kinda cool unless you do not like Dennis Weaver...

[FBG_HULK]

Wow, lots of whining on both "sides" here.

Why are they even sides in the first place?

Anyone who's taken the time to post anything other than a question in the forum has done so with hope of making the game more fun, and its obvious that the devs built Everwars as something to be fun for people. Several times I've seen complaints about the ads and whatever revenue this might generate, but lets get real, if any profit ever comes out of everwars, it isn't going to make any of the devs rich. No way is that their motivation here... their motivation is to make a fun game that they and others can enjoy.

So really, everyone here wants the same thing. A fun and competitive Everwars. So why don't we all put aside our petty differences, our slighted feelings, our powertrips, and whining about whining about whining?

Remember everyone, its just a game. Lets try and make it the best game it can be and then enjoy it. Let the Devs develop the game, and let the players give their feedback. Its that simple if you let it be that simple.

PS: I want a Blade of PMS for this inspiring post!

[Eve]

Myyyyy PMS blades.. allllll of them... My Precioussssesssss... :D

[Dellen]

Can I have a Blade of Silence? And if I kill someone with it they cant post in the forums for 24 hours? That would be awesome...

[Qozux]

I'm not a "the customer is right" kind of person, because lets face it, the customer is a flat out idiot and they're right when I tell them they are.
Being someone who has done a LOT of dealing with customers from soccer moms to very experienced pilots wanting to fly MY jet. I agree with this 400%. (yes, I have 400% to give)


In my personal opinion, the forum would be a lot more docile with 20K users. Because then you would have a much larger Nazi idealed moderator staff to obliterate any and all whining. Which would be personally trained by myself.
I hereby volunteer myself to be your Heinrich Himler


right now it's a bit of a pissing match
I bet I can piss WAY further than you.

[FBG_OChaos]

I am on absolutely no high horse. Lets get that straight right now.

Congratulations for you and offering your coding help. And yes, feedback was asked for. I do agree with you there, but constructive feedback is what common sense should tell you to use. My comments are hardly aimed at you. I hardly look down upon you. You're just the only one responding. I'd gladly bicker with one of the people that I was aiming my non sarcastic comments to. I mean exactly what I said. I think most of the people here are whining brats.

And no.. The players do NOT run the game. If you weren't here, other would be. So don't give me that. I'm not a "the customer is right" kind of person, because lets face it, the customer is a flat out idiot and they're right when I tell them they are.

The developers run the game, they can turn it off, take it away, keep it running. That's just how it is. That is the truth. And that will ALWAYS be the truth.

In my personal opinion, the forum would be a lot more docile with 20K users. Because then you would have a much larger Nazi idealed moderator staff to obliterate any and all whining. Which would be personally trained by myself. <--- A little on a high horse there

Lets face it.. I bet if we sat down and actually talked, we would probably see eye to eye on this, but right now it's a bit of a pissing match which is fine, but come look at it from my side. I read this junk everyday, as do you. If you were the one that didn't get the appreciatation for your product you would be just as upset. Feedback is a given, it has to happen. That way the product can be tailored. Again, it's a product. You have to take it how it is.

This isn't Legos man... You can't make it what you want. We do that. Give us a bit of a break for all the time we spend making this for thousands to enjoy. It's going to have speed bumps along the way. So lets just agree you and I, right now.. That if we see whining, we do our part to try and end it. I'll even stop being such a prick, if I know I have someone that can at least see it from my point of view.

Fair enough?

I haven't read any further in this thread, but I have to say that aside from the customer is always right difference of opinion, I am impressed with this response.

I don't think I can argue with that response.. That's fair enough IMO.

[FBG_OChaos]

Being someone who has done a LOT of dealing with customers from soccer moms to very experienced pilots wanting to fly MY jet. I agree with this 400%. (yes, I have 400% to give)

While I was in a help desk position years ago when I started my IT career, it was common knowledge that the customers don't know what the heck they want nor do they usually know what they are talking about.

BUT, being in a position where you provide a service or product for many people, I think that you still should listen to what they have to say and respond in a positive manner whether you agree with it or not.

The "it's my way or the highway" mentality is the fastest way to lose business IMO.

[FBG_OChaos]

Can I have a Blade of Silence? And if I kill someone with it they cant post in the forums for 24 hours? That would be awesome...

You aren't going to silence any players that say much on the forums n00b :p

Only the swift IP Axe of Zeras/Gil/Eve/Sadistic etc will silence me :D

[FBG_OChaos]

Myyyyy PMS blades.. allllll of them... My Precioussssesssss... :D

Solid post :D

[zodo]

rar

It's curious how people claim to know what I think.

My post WAS sarcasm, yes. If You're allowed to use it, Sadistic, others ought to be allowed as well, hm?

Since my point seems to have been entirely missed, I'll explain it.

I made a post a few days ago, stating that I had repeatedly offered feedback from friends of mine who have stopped playing her for various reasons. I had mistakenly figured that this feedback would be welcome. Instead, I've been labeled as a complainer. Seeing as my comments were not being received as I intended, I announced that I was going to stop making those posts.

Zeras' response was Thanks.

Thus, i gathered that Zeras did not want my opinion, or any other opinion that differed from whatever propoganda she is giving out this day. If you don't support her, you're a whiny complainer, and aren't worth her giving you the time of day.

This doesn't inspire confidence in me toward the admins.

ON top of this, Sadistic has shown himself to be rather bombastic and sarcastic, quick to assume the worst in my posts, and question why I would have anything of value to speak.

Eve, who is supposedly the admin who most loudly advocates the players, has simply been flaunting the special items she's been given which have carried her to the top of the rankings.

These also do not inspire confidence. I find it hard to believe that an Open Discussion can seriously be held with staffers with these attitudes.

On the flip side, Gil has tried to be encouraging, and put a positive spin on things. Of all the admins, he's the only one who seems to genuinely care, without any agenda or ulterior motive behind it. He doesn't post often, but when he does, he almost always has genuine new information to give the players, and not a canned response to questions he's tired of hearing. Gil is the one ray of hope that gives me reason to keep playing this game. He says things are going to be getting better, and does so in a way that makes me believe him.

So.

I expect to be torn apart in posts from the admins after this. That's the nature of these forums. In the past, my words have meant little, and I don't expect that to change. But since I'm the only one who truly knows my thoughts, I felt obligated to take my one chance at showing what I think, as opposed to what other people think I think, and their opionion on what little value what I think has.

rar

[Sadistic]

When I read your post, Zodo. I felt like you were trying to get pitty, or encite some sort of reaction from other players.

To me, that doesn't have any value.

Your opinion on the other hand, usually does have quite a bit of value. I'm sure it's partly my doing in making you so snappy, obviously you feel like you have to be because of how you're treated, and I'm sorry that's how far things have gotten.

I'm glad you can find at least one reason to stick around.

[jujube]

Actually, if I was irritated or upset, I would not have responded at all. I would not have gone through a lengthy attempt at explaining the problem with what you suggested if it did not matter to me.

I had no bad feelings toward you and see, that's the problem. I tend to be a VERY straight forward person when I reply to posts. Just because I don't put a ton of "lol" and :D :) in my posts does not mean I'm irritated, mad, upset, etc.

I honestly was just trying to explain why doing what you are asking would require major increases to prices across the board.

The one thing that most people don't even know is that during closed beta, with 10 people playing, we actually used the sell back percentage system. In fact, a sell-back percentage was how we designed the game to work. We tried 50% originally and then lowered it down to 10, then finally 5%. What we found was within 1-2 weeks, every player had the best items. This was a proven result from a live game. The closed beta testers can back me up on this .. everyone gained items way too quickly which eliminated most of the non-uber items and created a boring game.

:D :) .. just so no one thinks I'm posting this with anything other than a desire to explain the situation.

-Z
Fair enough, though intentionally inflating what I suggested as the trade back values does not appear to me to be "straight forward".

Honestly, I think your sample was flawed. Perhaps it was because there were too few people playing? Perhaps that was before you scaled back the loot percentages relative to SPs?

However, if what you say is true, that raising resale to even 10% of retail would result in everyone having all the best stuff within 1-2 weeks, then explain this:

I just looked at the last 75 prize codes given out and estimated the value of items received relative to similar items in the store. Assuming a 10% resale value, if one character was to have gotten all those items through battle without suffering any losses at all, they would have parlayed 75 EP into 154. That is basically 1/2 to 1/4 what it costs for anything that fits in the category of "the best stuff". That's about 2 days worth of EP. So, at that rate, you can buy one truly remarkable item about every week or so. Now, let's say that you also just stumble across one such item every 200 or so battles as a bonus. That's a fair number since I've earned 5 rare items in over 1000 battles. Mind you, one of those "rare" items is worse than many of my UC ones, but that's another story entirely (that being that even in the store some commons cost more than UCs and some UCs cost more than Rs yet the resale does not reflect this). So, at this rate, that adds one remarkable item per week for a total of 2 such items per week.

It takes 10 weapons, 2 jewelry, 4 scrolls/potions, 1 amulet, and 1 each of 5 different armor. That's 22 items. At the rate of 2 remarkable items per week, that's nearly 3 mos. That, of course, is assuming that 1) the remarkable item that you stumble across is one that you can use and 2) there's a remarkable item available in the shop and it's one that you can use. Factor these in and you push that number back further.

Here's another. Nearly all the prize codes in that sample of 75 were I and II. Most of those being I. So, you can add another week or so to that estimate because it takes about that long (unless you play like a fiend out the gate) to get to the stage where you are winning nothing but I and II prizes. Let's not forget that one spends the first few days losing and drawing and getting an occasional rank IV before one hits one's stride.

Lastly, I'm curious what your intentions for the item shop are. I think it's rather well established that it's rather useless to nearly all the players. Once again, great to buy that first club or dagger to get you on your way. Fine, also if you've reached a stage where the odds of upgrading where you need it are nearly impossible. However, what about everyone else? The spread between resale and retail has rendered it useless as well as encouraging people to just hoard EP rather than actually play the game.

Based on hard numbers and my hopes that this game becomes more engaging, I strongly suggest you consider this argument.

[FBGOnetime]

So basically, you doubled the everpoints you got and stopped? If you double your everpoints farming, why would you ever stop? Why not accrue 2^14 everpoints?

[Gil]

It takes 10 weapons, 2 jewelry, 4 scrolls/potions, 1 amulet, and 1 each of 5 different armor. That's 22 items. At the rate of 2 remarkable items per week, that's nearly 3 mos. That, of course, is assuming that 1) the remarkable item that you stumble across is one that you can use and 2) there's a remarkable item available in the shop and it's one that you can use. Factor these in and you push that number back further.
Emphasis mine

See, to me, this example you have provided here is not too far off of what I in particular want. 3 months for someone to get totally kitted out in UR gear is what I like to see. Semi slow but steady growth. Z feels otherwise I believe (I hate talking for Z) in that the rate should not take that long. What can I say, I am old school and I could be wrong. But then again I could be right, time will tell.

Something else to consider, there are people reporting getting better than average rates on their prizes so for some people, the time table is even faster. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I know for a fact I've seen several indivuals who have already maxed out their gear well into the first month of the Beta.

Final point I would like to make is that even though I am not telling you what you want to hear, I (and the others) are listening. I think it is fairly obvious we all disagree but that is okay. It would be a boring world if we all agreed all of the time :).

[jujube]

So basically, you doubled the everpoints you got and stopped? If you double your everpoints farming, why would you ever stop? Why not accrue 2^14 everpoints?
I'm operating under the insane assumption that sometimes people stop playing. That work, sleep, meals, walking the dog, defecating, urinating, and other elements of daily life often come into play. That simply fighting 37 battles per day is a reasonable amount of time to devote to the game.

I suppose the fact that some would do nothing but continue playing this game all day and all night is the best argument against a reasonable return on resale.

Of course, perhaps an ever better safeguard against this is to not make it profitable to power-farm people ranked beneath you. This would seem to not only limit how quickly one can get all the cool stuff but remove what is among the lamest things about EverWars, the fact that regardless of past attempts, that is still basically the name of the game. That is: Find the highest ranked players you know you can beat even at 50%-75% and attack them in batches, wait until the 14 minutes are up, and repeat.

As I understand they're working on something that will fix the second part, the part about amassing things too quickly given a fair resale should take care of itself.

[jujube]

Emphasis mine

See, to me, this example you have provided here is not too far off of what I in particular want. 3 months for someone to get totally kitted out in UR gear is what I like to see. Semi slow but steady growth. Z feels otherwise I believe (I hate talking for Z) in that the rate should not take that long. What can I say, I am old school and I could be wrong. But then again I could be right, time will tell.

Something else to consider, there are people reporting getting better than average rates on their prizes so for some people, the time table is even faster. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I know for a fact I've seen several indivuals who have already maxed out their gear well into the first month of the Beta.

Final point I would like to make is that even though I am not telling you what you want to hear, I (and the others) are listening. I think it is fairly obvious we all disagree but that is okay. It would be a boring world if we all agreed all of the time :).
Well, perhaps the culprit in terms of people maxing out quickly could be the fact that you need only get 5 people to join and continue playing for 10 days to get 50 UC or better items. The guy that turned me onto this site got more than a dozen of us to join and most have played at least 10 days. That's 120 UC items. I understand that it is in your best interest to get more players, but you've also created a bit of a monster by making it so desirable for people to do so.

My example was based on a limited sample. Obviously one could progress faster than that even without the use of recruitment bonuses. Of course, my example was also based on someone never losing any battles. Basically farming. As I mentioned in the above response to someone else, if you figure out a way to stop farming, this problem disappears as well.

[Gil]

Well, perhaps the culprit in terms of people maxing out quickly could be the fact that you need only get 5 people to join and continue playing for 10 days to get 50 UC or better items. The guy that turned me onto this site got more than a dozen of us to join and most have played at least 10 days. That's 120 UC items. I understand that it is in your best interest to get more players, but you've also created a bit of a monster by making it so desirable for people to do so.
Agreed, we did create a monster with recruitment but it was a necessary evil of sorts. As with every other aspect of this game, including the economy, I am sure it will be reviewed and tweaked where deemed necessary.

My example was based on a limited sample. Obviously one could progress faster than that even without the use of recruitment bonuses. Of course, my example was also based on someone never losing any battles. Basically farming. As I mentioned in the above response to someone else, if you figure out a way to stop farming, this problem disappears as well.
I would even add that there are those who progress slower than your sample as well.

[jujube]

Agreed, we did create a monster with recruitment but it was a necessary evil of sorts. As with every other aspect of this game, including the economy, I am sure it will be reviewed and tweaked where deemed necessary.


I would even add that there are those who progress slower than your sample as well.
So, it doesn't sound like we disagree at all. ;)

Oh, and please don't 86 the recruitment bonus until the guy I got to sign up gets approved. I see a free Tarnished Mithril knuckle duster in my future!

[Dragother]

I would even add that there are those who progress slower than your sample as well.

<Raises hand>Ummm...that would be me.

Disclaimer: This is not a complaint or a whine. For this to be interpreted as a compain or a whine, express written permission nust be obtained from Dragother or his designated agent at the time of the interpretation. The only intent of this post is to show that even someone who spends an above average amount of time here does not necessarily advance at an above average pace.

[Gil]

<Raises hand>Ummm...that would be me.

Disclaimer: This is not a complaint or a whine. For this to be interpreted as a compain or a whine, express written permission nust be obtained from Dragother or his designated agent at the time of the interpretation. The only intent of this post is to show that even someone who spends an above average amount of time here does not necessarily advance at an above average pace.
Post this several times in a row and then I will classify it as a whine :p

[Athion]

Gil is the one ray of hope that gives me reason to keep playing this game. He says things are going to be getting better, and does so in a way that makes me believe him.

Speaking as someone that has known Gil for 20+ years, and played untold hours of various types of RPGs with him (tabletop, computer, MMO, card games, Mini games, etc) ... all I can say is... you poor poor bastard.... :D